The Beauty and True Meaning of Sex with Gwendolyn Dolske

Welcome to the premiere episode of Season 2!  

In this episode, Ella is joined by Gwendolyn Dolske, a Professor at California State Polytechnic University - Pomona Gwendolyn is also the creator of Good Is In The Details Podcast, university lecturer, keynote speaker, and author of Tips From The Professor: A Guide for College Success She uses philosophy as a means to teach, create, and guide Her goal is to foster intellectual growth as a key component toward a life of happiness.  Gwendolyn & Ella shed light on the complex and often overlooked topic of sex education She emphasizes the need for a comprehensive approach to sex education that goes beyond the biological aspects of reproduction By exploring themes such as the lack of communication around sex, the dynamics of love and sexuality, and the beauty and purpose of sex, Gwendolyn highlights the importance of fostering a culture of healthy attitudes and enjoying fulfilling and respectful sexual relationships 

Topics:

•  The power of coming from an all-girls school
• Consent violations, not just physically but emotionally
• The philosophy of sex and love
• Social changes that affected marriage and love
• An in-depth understanding of sex education
• Addressing the need for lack of communication around sex
• The beauty and purpose of sex

Quotes:

"What it means to be a woman is growing It's being more of a full participant in society That changes the very dynamics of love and sexuality" - Gwendolyn

"Sex is the expression of pleasure, healthy relationships, communication, vulnerability, romance, love, and commitment Sometimes, all at once, maybe just a few If sex is gone, that means those things are gone" - Gwendolyn

Keywords & Themes: Philosophy of Sex and Love, Sex Education, Communication in Sexual Relationships, Health and Wellbeing in Relationships, Empowerment through Education, Young People and Sex, Sexual Dynamics, College Education

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Transcript

   | Gwendolyn  | :  | Hi.
 | Ella  | :  | So today I am interviewing Glenda and Dulski who is the host of the good is in the details podcast. She has a lot of other great thing. So I'm gonna let her introduce her yourself. So I'm gonna ask as I often do for my guess. Hello. Who are you, how do we know each other and where can people find you online?
 | Gwendolyn  | :  | My name is Glen. I'm a philosophy professor, a writer, a podcaster and a mom. A new mom by surprise. Three and a half years ago and we, people can find me on Instagram at prostate. I'm also doing tick talks with the same name at ski, and then good is in the details on all the platforms were there you can listen to our work and we know each other because a little while ago our high-school put some sort of a post about me. I don't remember what it was on Instagram and you must have looked at it and then reached out to me as a result of that post and you saw that I was in podcasting. And you said you were in podcasting. And.
 | Gwendolyn  | :  | So, we've been following each other on our social and I love your content. You're just such a light. I mean, I'm looking forward to when your own good as in the details. I absolutely love your content. I think you're inspiring your charming and so maybe the feelings a bit mutual cause you asked for me to be on your show too.
 | Ella  | :  | Well, absolutely so, yes, I do recall that. And I saw that you were connected with Andrea Barkley when I looked into you and I was like, wait, how does she know that? So, Barkley was one of my teachers at Roser but also a fellow Roser alum. And the feeling is absolutely mutual, I, I'm absolutely florid and honor to have you. You are not only incredibly beautiful for anyone who can't see you right now but absolutely brilliant. I love your podcast, you not only speak across a muri of topics, which is super inspiring for me but the way that you are particulate yourself, and the way that you approach a lot of really difficult and.
 | Gwendolyn  | :  | Oh, yes.
 | Gwendolyn  | :  | Mm-hmm.
 | Ella  | :  | Discussions is, is really inspiring to me. And for the record, your content is outrageously incredible and compelling point. I saw that you have, I think it's like, $25 million lights on it talk so you're clearly resonating with an audience and, and I really love the work you're doing and, and I will say people have to hear this a lot until I'm blowing the face that I've always been widely impressed with the.
 | Ella  | :  | With the outputs of rosary. High-school alum, I do think there is such a beautiful power and putting specifically females in an environment where we are not competing for the attention of our mail at ales counterparts and we are just working in an empowering environment. I don't know if you experience this or if you attribute any of your successes, the money that you have to going to an all girl school, but I will never forget that my freshman, you're specifically of college. How many professors pulled me aside and said you went to an all girl school? Didn't they knew because of the level of confidence I had raising my hand speaking out in class. They said females do not raise their hand like that and typically when we see it, it's because it's an individual who went to an school and I thought, wow.
 | Gwendolyn  | :  | Yes.
 | Ella  | :  | Like to, to be able to recognize that level of empowerment and a woman and to know that my counter parts in my college level courses didn't necessarily show that I thought that was a huge Testin because how else would they know besides just raising my hand that simple just or had a, and I had multiple professors. I don't know if you experienced that being a professor yourself or again having Ben a student and a product of an all girls learning environment. Did you see did, have you noticed any trends in that regard?
 | Gwendolyn  | :  | Yeah, I think I had that same experience when I first started university. And I was just surprised by the commentary. But I also was surprised about how some of my, my the friends that I had made, the young women friends that I made, who were very bright and in our spaces when we would talk. But then when we were in a social setting I was surprised by how much they would minimize that for the attention of, you know, the young men. And it was something that I didn't see in myself or with with other women from my class. And there's something about an all girl school and which all of the spaces when it comes to sports.
 | Gwendolyn  | :  | Governing social spaces cheering that those are occupied completely by young women and that's not really the reality of the world. So, when you have that, it just instills a confidence in you that you don't know any other way of being, like, it Roser you didn't know any other way of being, other than showing up and paying attention to the material that the teachers were giving you. And then that mentality goes into university into other classrooms where as somebody might have the mentality of going too, class to show off their new outfit or to, oh, really show that they're crush on somebody, you know, we were just so laser focused on education that done and that the partying, it's not like we didn't have any friends or social life but all the parting and the interaction like with boys and such that happened after those school. Hours. So, it's not that like, we were without it, it's just that school time was for learning.
 | Ella  | :  | Yes, I and I do you see that has like in your life outside of university in terms of empowerment? I'm really excited this perfectly fits into where I'm hoping to talk to you today as a professor and a lifelong learner of philosophy which just quite frankly overwhelms me. And I'm hoping you can help me digested a digested a bit is, you know, my emphasis in, in university was in gender studies. So not so much from a hill standpoint. But this idea of which is such a hot topic today and, and, you know, the differences and empowerment of various genders and where we sit in, in society specifically.
 | Gwendolyn  | :  | Oh.
 | Gwendolyn  | :  | Yeah.
 | Ella  | :  | But for you, as you look at, I know that we looked up a, I looked up a class that you taught. I'm not sure if you're still teaching it this semester. But the philosophy of sex and love moral theory, and existential, does that go into gender roles or do where does gender roles play a part in such a, such a deep topic of really philosophy and, and the role of sex in, in our society?
 | Gwendolyn  | :  | Yeah, so, philosophy means, the translation from the Greek to English, literally means love of wisdom. So, that's a pretty large ballpark, that means everything is on the table and when somebody earns their P-H-D-P-H-D stands for philosophy doctor. So you are a lover wisdom, if you have a PhD in history, gender studies, biology, that PhD means that you are a lover of wisdom to pursue that; and since everything is on the table, things like, gender and sexuality are also on the table and.
 | Gwendolyn  | :  | I have to confess that my background was in existential literature, and I did a lot on moral theory, and I ended up teaching that class on sex and love because the person who was teaching it retired and the chair the department. Asked if I could take it and I was in a hurry when I said yes, and I just said yes, not paying attention to what I had said yes too, just said yes and then I was busy with, you know, I had some traveling to do and then all of a sudden the semester starts and I see Locy section love, oh, my god and I'm thinking, love is for the poet or that's for psychology, I study things like, what is justice. I don't know anything about this and I had to take a break and sit back and think wait a minute of all the people I've studied they had to mention, love, where does it show up in philosophy and I started with Plato, Plato wrote a book called the symposium which is really about.
 | Gwendolyn  | :  | Seven or eight drunk men sitting around the table and they are drinking copious amount of wine and then they stand up and say with their definition of love it and I thought, okay, if this is important enough for play over to right about it. Then there's something here and when it comes to and I enjoyed, like I said, I enjoyed topics like justice and I started to look at the way that our laws are structured. And this goes into stuff about gender studies as well.
 | Gwendolyn  | :  | Our laws are structured where they reflect an idea of who you can and cannot love. And then what way you can and cannot love and how much money in investment, and what you can teach about that, our laws are reflections about that, and so, I started to take more seriously. This topic that it is something that is a force, it drives up the absence of love is horrifying, that means you would wake-up everyday, just not caring about anything.
 | Gwendolyn  | :  | No, friends, no work. So there's something to it, but it's Luca because it's on a continuum it's already tell you what the definition of love is right now you would not feel satisfied wouldn't do anything for you or if I say you want to know what love is. Here's what shakes beer road. That's the end of the story. It wouldn't feel satisfied there's something about this ongoing process of what it means to love and it's expanding. But it also we're, it's not 100 percent subjective because we need some sort of boundary around the definition, otherwise everything is love and nothing is loved. So it has to be something when it comes to something like gender studies that would be.
 | Gwendolyn  | :  | Now I don't know I mean I'm in philosophy. So.
 | Gwendolyn  | :  | I'm not doing gender studies, exactly, but when we're talking about the nature of love and the nature of sex? A lot of it comes down to what are our assumptions about this process? And can we just take a look at what those assumptions are? And a lot of people don't want to. Because we really structured an economic idea around one particular view of sexuality and gender roles. And so, when somebody is challenging that, they're not just challenging one little thing they're challenging an entire economic dynamic.
 | Gwendolyn  | :  | A sense of who somebody is in the way things are supposed to be.
 | Gwendolyn  | :  | And we've seen in the last fifty years, a real shake up and I say fifties cause I think a lot of what we're experiencing today these questions about gender, I think they started in the seventies, because a lot of laws changed in the seventies. You have title nine which means that women, can, you have the concept of the female athlete really, women can all of a, some participate in sports, there's money for that, there's teams, there's coaches, that means that young women after school. Aren't just caring about their boyfriends, or they're caring about something else. Excellent sports. So that changed the dynamic right there, then in the seventies you have women, it's legal for them to have their own bank accounts and then in the eighties, women can have their own businesses and so with the shift.
 | Gwendolyn  | :  | Women are coming in to a sense of self. That is not just designed to be organized around what it means to be a man. Now. What it means to be a woman is growing and it's being more of a full participant in society that changes the very dynamics of love and sexuality. Another thing that I think happened that was just before the seventies is you had the supreme court strike down laws which means said throughout the United States you can marry outside of your race, and that also changed things that change the notion of love. That change the notion of who you were allowed to love. So before bank accounts before. Hold on one second.
 | Gwendolyn  | :  | For bank accounts before this notion of, you know, business, the woman athlete having their own interest and also this restriction in terms of race and ethnicity and who you can marry. Once you eliminate that, then the ideas of what it means to be in love shift because before that marriage was really an economic agreement, love an attraction was not really necessary for a good marriage, what was good marriage was the man-made money and then the woman did the domestic labor and they had kids, it wasn't really significant if you are attracted to each other, you, remove that economic and senti, meaning that women can provide for themselves and men can do their own laundry all of a sudden what that stake is, are you attracted to each other and how do you express that? So the in folding of what we see today, I think started back in the seventies.
 | Ella  | :  | And in, gosh, a attraction. I know this is, no, it was beautiful. I love how you speak. I know I wanted, I was, oh, my gosh! Can I take notes? Is she gonna hear me? I absolutely love the way you speak it makes. So, I can only imagine how excited your students are to have you not only, again just your brilliant mind but how you articulate yourself and are able to digest it for, for us lay people is, is incredible especially with something so heavy. I don't know if heavy is the right term but as.
 | Gwendolyn  | :  | With that too much, I don't, it's lost. Electra mode. Okay.
 | Ella  | :  | Mind blowing as.
 | Ella  | :  | You know, the idea of looking at where we exist, how we exist, how we're showing up in the world and where it does is impacted whether we like it or not by policy is can be a, a, a bit overwhelming and, and it has a, you know, looking at our own individuality of where we show up in the world and we want to belief that we're not necessarily have to be so much impacted by these laws that have been acted, or.
 | Ella  | :  | Or whatever it might be coming from the seventies and eighties. You know, before I technically existed that are still affecting how I get to show up in the world today and I think that that's where it is such a, it's such a difficult topic to try to tackle in, in the few, you know, the half hour that we have but where I wanted where I particularly was excited to speak to you.
 | Gwendolyn  | :  | Mm-hmm.
 | Ella  | :  | Was one of my personal passions that I haven't spoken about publicly on my podcast but I do try to instigate conversations is sexual education and and I thought that you might be a really great person to speak to on the topic because I know that you've had a couple of podcast episode. You've been a guess speaking to sexual education which is again a really expensive topic and a broad topic? But in the context of.
 | Ella  | :  | Information right in the context that you know, today the, with Google, you know, you can just about a child can, in terms of sexual education, the instance stages of their sexual education a child can virtually Google anything now is that the kind of sexual education we want. Probably not, I would argue that that's not the best way but from a philosophical goal of shaping human behavior and looking at how it affects not only our social norms in the context of marriage or lack there of. Do you see a, a tie in between how we educate our children on sex and where that might show up in terms of shaping human behavior and society?
 | Gwendolyn  | :  | Mm-hmm.
 | Gwendolyn  | :  | Yes and I want to make sure that I start by crediting the journalist Peggy or Insta because I've been really influenced by her work. So it's so influence that sometimes what I say might be actually taking taken from her, so, I wanna make sure I credit her.
 | Gwendolyn  | :  | I think that from the philosophy and me who enjoys definitions and ideas. I want to sit back and say, wait a minute. What do we mean by education in the first place? And I think education has really two parts to it? Like, what is the purpose of it? And the first part is to provide the knowledge and information that we have.
 | Gwendolyn  | :  | That's partly what it means to be education and then the second part is the critical thinking skills in order to move forward to check what it is that we think we know to know if that is solid or where do we go from there? If you're missing that second part. I don't think it's education, I think it's in Dr. nation, you have to have that second part to do what you can with that information that knowledge and.
 | Gwendolyn  | :  | So, and that's what we would consider to be a good education. I've asked my students, I put the word education on the board, and I'm like define what is an aspect of a good education and all of is like, you know, more it inspires curiosity it is, it is good, it is useful like we have all these ways to just talk about education in and of itself and if it's not doing those things. If that we understand, that's what's good if it's not doing those things. Then we've got a problem and not so great education. So, let's just accept what is we mean by education that it's for good students injury that for, also for health, also for people to enjoy their lives, and also for some sort of a promotion of a good society.
 | Gwendolyn  | :  | So, if we can accept that, that's a definition of society, and then we take a look at let's add sex to it. Let's be specific sex education, are we actually doing that? And I don't think so, in some places, it's completely absent. And then in places where it does exist, what it is talking about is the biological reality of reproduction, which is not really what sex is that the.
 | Gwendolyn  | :  | The reality of having a child is one possible by product of sex. But let's be honest about what sex is it is not just a biological reality, it is also a very personal. Can be spiritual, it's an emotional. It's a physically pleasurable. Experience. All of these things need to be in contact. Otherwise, we're really robbing people of understanding what is going on.
 | Gwendolyn  | :  | And I think that the failure is showing up in different ways where, you know, you and I actually shared this article June in the Atlantic wrote about and this is in 2018 rote about the sex recession that people are having a lot less sex they used in particular. And at first everyone was all excited, like, you know, like we have this idea that sex is bad. I want to be clear for anyone who's pretty conservative and I'm thinking, I'm not advocating for extreme promiscuity and not caring about anybody. I'm not advocating for that when I'm talking in these terms. I'm just saying that what Kate, Julian article recognize.
 | Gwendolyn  | :  | Beside the reason that there is a sex recession and that people are having less sec are not good. And I read that as a, I think we have to re-evaluate will mean by sex. That sex is the expression of a lot of things pleasure health, right. You need to be, there has to be some sort of a, a healthy vibe going on of, of a healthy relationship, communication vulnerability. They were all of these things romance, love, commitment that are been sex, as the expression of all of these things.
 | Gwendolyn  | :  | Sometimes, all at once. Maybe just a few, you remove it. Sex is gone, that means those things are gone, so we have to take a look at what is it that we are doing? And, and Julian article and also the work of Peggy Oran they're seeing that there is this is this.
 | Gwendolyn  | :  | The lack of relationships that people are having with each other because they're on their phones all the time, or they are getting their sex Ed, I put an air quote from porn that's on any Google search, that's just very prevalent. Then being able to be vulnerable, and communicate with somebody and being love with somebody, and laugh with somebody and get embarrassed in front of somebody. Like all of those things they're going away. So, that we're spending more time on the phone and we're not engaging in this activity. It can be a very beautiful and healthy expression of what it means to be.
 | Ella  | :  | Oh, my gosh, that was very beautifully put. I'm also going to link Kate Juan's article and Peggy Orenstein in the show notes for anybody who wants to dive more deeply into the work that's inspired you when we look at I mean I completely agree. I think that where.
 | Gwendolyn  | :  | Mm-hmm.
 | Ella  | :  | I feel very blessed and a little conflicted and my Catholic upbringing is that my parents absolutely spoke about sex in that context. I maybe a little too pleasure forward in their education and speaking about sex and it was really because as children.
 | Ella  | :  | Both my brother and I, but specifically I noticed that I grew up in the era you know, I was in third grade when our president of the United States was in a sex scandal, which was just a very hard thing to try to comprehend as a third grader, right? Because you're thinking, why would someone do that? It doesn't make sense because that pleasure piece was not it didn't, it wasn't a.
 | Ella  | :  | It just none of it made sense to me, right? And so I think for a lot of people who are my age specifically who are coming of age during that particular scandal it forced a lot of conversations with children and parents because you couldn't find a news channel that wasn't talking about it at the time. And then it provokes a lot more questions on but what did he do and why was it wrong? And I'm confused, he's married, right? And so my parents really lin leaned into this idea of, well this is how sex is used in society or can be used or should be used but then in conjunction with and here are some of the detriment of the pursuit of the pleasure of that comes with sex and, and I'm really grateful in a lot of ways for how that was.
 | Ella  | :  | Given to me for my parents but also was hyper aware that my account, my, my cohorts the children, the classmates we're not getting those same types of conversation and again growing up in a Catholic environment it, it was a little conflict it was extremely conflicting. And so I think where I.
 | Ella  | :  | I struggle both internally and then trying to think about my friends and their children and what do we want their healthy sex lives to look like, and where do I want my future children? Should I be blessed enough to have any? What do I want their healthy sex lives look like, I believe that not only does it start with sexual education, but then it goes into the body acceptance the positivity, the body positivity, body tonomy which I think is still something we're not properly communicating in our society because at the, at the end of the day, pleasure or not I still see that sex is against children in the form of abuse.
 | Ella  | :  | By adults or, or even older quote children at lessons in their lives and in my personal life where I've seen a lot of detriment and this might be a little over some. But when I, when I talked to someone and I sit down and I'm hearing about the struggles of their life, whatever it may be right? But the things that paying them, I could almost always trace it back to some type of.
 | Ella  | :  | Sexual Ms conduct whether that was the fact that their father had an, a fair extra Matala and they have a sibling, they didn't know about whether they find out that their father is not actually their biological father because of some extra Rado affair. Whether they thought, whether they experience sexual abuse or they found out that their mother was, was, was raped when they were younger, whatever it might be a lot of times we will see in my experiences not as a therapist just as a person living in the world. I keep seeing that a theme of some type of sexual misconduct. Privit or even just in the context of a, of a, we'll say natural extra marital affair of, of some type of deviance that is occurred and I, and, and then if we, if I got a chance, you know, I have a friend who, you know, her father, father, she has 25 brothers and sisters that her father, like, personally fathered and that is a part of her trauma and, and I, and.
 | Ella  | :  | When he passed away it drugged up a lot of painful situations because she was not want he had one family that he lived with and took care of those two or three children and then within pregnant women around the world and not take care of them. And so she was with many and when he passed away it drugged up a lot of painful thing and then I look at how she lives her life and, and so many ways.
 | Ella  | :  | She's trying to break the cycle and, and go through that. But it's like, but why I wish I could sit down with him and say why, what are we doing? What happened to you, where is this coming from? Is this house that should be used? Yes, that should be used for pleasure. But in this way, I would say it's a, a DBS behavior at the risk of sounding judgmental and this is where my fascination with sexual education comes because going back to that innocent third grader who's looking at the mess will call it. I don't want to bring up politics but the mess that came from the extra metal affair that he had, right? It's like, but why, what was the point where did this come from? What is this urge? Yes it's natural. But does this make sense? And, and and, and who ultimately hurt you that this is your thought of, of sack beyond porn and I think a lot of it when we really dig deep and, and, and do some.
 | Ella  | :  | Not only digging within ourselves but within our parents we see the same of sexual abuse it comes up again and again and again in my limited again experiences are being able to speak to people. And I get so not only enraged, disgusted but just dis hearten because I'm like, okay it's happened to a lot of us.
 | Ella  | :  | How are we stopping it happening for our children? What are we doing in this light of access to sexual education? How are we, because again, in my limited experiences, I'm not even gonna use statistics, I can only speak to my limited experiences of, of my little small network you know, it, it's not a stranger on the street, it's almost always a family member or trusted friend who's the perpetrator, right? And so in that context outside of other hors. Horse horrific act of, of aren, violence. That can occur in terms of sexual violence but when I'm like, okay, but why haven't you, why haven't you told your parents or how did this happen and why did your uncle have access to you?
 | Gwendolyn  | :  | Yeah.
 | Ella  | :  | Why did that babysitter have access to you? How did your parents not know, and if we're not talking about it to our parents and, and confronting the fact that they didn't protect us as much as they maybe could have, how are we going to?
 | Ella  | :  | Correct, the wheel for our children and that's what I'm struggling with now as you know as a young quote young, not so young till to my overs adult trying, you know looking at parenthood in that context and knowing that is a big source of pain that continues to, to hurt others. Like where my, you and your studies and background see the possible empowerment of, of that level of education to give to our children in the context of, of protecting them at a young age and then also empowering them in their sexual pursuits life happiness, success in the future as adults.
 | Gwendolyn  | :  | Yeah, I think.
 | Gwendolyn  | :  | There's a different, there's a lot there.
 | Gwendolyn  | :  | Especially, like I said, as a, as a, as a new mom and now I've got a, you know, a, a child it's three and a half, and I want for her to have a good life, you know, I want for her to enjoy her life, and so I think about these things, and I want to, you know, protect people. And I think this is also one of the reasons why sex needs to be talked about and the reality, the impact of pornography needs to be discussed.
 | Gwendolyn  | :  | So, one of the ideas is to there's, there's two things that I think we're going on when seed and I'll just repeat this but when sexed is Todd, it's normally tag in terms of here's what a fertilized egg is and then that's the end of the discussion or young women will learn about periods and then that's it and that really does not describe I would go with.
 | Gwendolyn  | :  | So the silence rounded, I think that I'll give grace to the people who are using the silence because they want to protect their children. All of the studies, all of the work indicates that does the exact opposite. But when you talk about sex in terms of consent or all of these health benefits. For instance and you know different degrees depending on the age of the child of course you know but health benefits or the way would you feel closer to somebody helps you get a good night sleep for a man a lowers cardiovascular disease. Like there are all of these.
 | Gwendolyn  | :  | Wonderful things that are bonding about sexual experience, not something to talk to a third grader about. But we need to even I'm gonna be able to name the terms of the body and the terms of the body are just, girls don't really have words like they're told not to touch their own bodies. They don't even have names for their own parts. Boys might have a name like their PP or something like that, that's cute, but girls don't even have it in this silence means that when something awful happens, whether it is on the scale of awful whether it is inappropriate touching or a total violation. If there is not an understanding of the language then that child has a very difficult time communicating that something is wrong, and even knowing that something is wrong. So, even into young adulthood one of the reasons for the second.
 | Gwendolyn  | :  | This recession and this said doesn't have to do with violation so much. But this has to do with bad or pain full sex which means that young women do not even understand how their own bodies are supposed to function. You will reduce the bad and painful sex if you teach what it is supposed to be doing. And no young woman would ever tolerate something where she is not paid attention to or, you know, sexually or given the opportunity to be vulnerable and to enjoy herself. But as long as we teach sec as though it's just reproduction or often that it's just something done to the woman then people are not going to be able to experience that as part of their life but in terms of sexual violence, sexual sold and things like that you're absolutely right and I just.
 | Gwendolyn  | :  | I think that other people can be brought into the narrative cause there's tension between parents and teachers, right? Of who is going to have this discussion. I would invite another group of for professionals to join the conversation to alleviate that tension. And I think that could be doctored and so I would think about all of the doctor's appointments I had, I don't think there was ever a conversation about how my parts worked and what was going on, it was like, you just get a checkup and go think about how much that would change the conversation if doctors were part of explaining what is supposed to be going on. So, a lot of the trauma has to do I think with treating especially women's women's body parts like, ultim like, you just don't say it, that just leaves us no room for communication and for understanding and a lot of room for harm.
 | Ella  | :  | I think I have a couple of ex-boyfriends you probably call a Gina Moore if they had the chance. So thank you for triggering that memory. No, I do and I do think I, I'm not gonna say I'm perfect. I was 23 when I started having sex and it was with a partner who I love deeply and, and thought I was gonna Mary and we had a long-term relationship and, and that meant that I survived high-school and college.
 | Ella  | :  | Not participating in a lot of the painful activities that you know, some of my classmates did in terms of just being with the wrong person and, and, and the promise city and, and things like that and I'm really, really grateful and I do fully. I somewhat attribute it to my Catholic faith somewhat. I would say it's more over that it was just my parents super open dialogue which in its own way was pretty traumatic.
 | Ella  | :  | But I felt like, I just had an understanding of both the beauty and purpose and possible, and, and, and really just eminent danger that can come with sexual activity or behavior that is not approached with full like with intention and to your point I'm gonna echo it cause it's a given but it's not unfortunately consent where I do struggle as a Christian who sees sex. I do believe that Sen, it should be within the context of marriage but I also, I'm aware that, that's not the reality of our world and I think that's more of a, a personal choice will say in the context subset but just knowing that we are sexually active adults with consenting where I do get a bit.
 | Gwendolyn  | :  | Mm-hmm.
 | Ella  | :  | Despite Kate Julian, you know, you know, article that talks about this sex for shut recession. Is that with the.
 | Ella  | :  | With social media and technology. You know, this swinging the other way to really say, well, this is my freedom of, of expression and I'm gonna show myself and then the over sexualization which I'm not sure is really correcting the issue of having empowerment over our bodies but is it, if, and maybe you can articulate this better for me, it, I feel like it swing the penile in, in the wrong direction or maybe towards the right direction but just way far out to where we're almost to your point with the, with the per, per, the.
 | Ella  | :  | How porn is, so perf, I would say is in, is, is kind of parallel to this overlap over sexualization specifically of women in the media. And so, I was curious about like, what you see the balance is there between not talking about our body parts to children, little girls, but then having this Jack the position of women.
 | Ella  | :  | Doing really Roy things on the internet, on the, on the Instagram and, and where we find that balance of a, a healthy active sexual relationship.
 | Gwendolyn  | :  | Yeah, I've thought of, I've thought about this too. I mean, I think that, well, I don't think that I'm in the same position as of you, as terms of thinking of sexuality in, in the conference of a marriage.
 | Gwendolyn  | :  | But I do also, somebody might mistake me thinking that I would be all for just being all over the place. But no, I mean in terms of moral theory, I'm very much that you've never use another human being. So this will be from the Flossy. Manual con. The idea that human being should always be treated as an end in herself or himself never as a means only. And I agree with that and what that essentially means is that a means only is when you treat a person like an object, like a tool.
 | Gwendolyn  | :  | Cool. So, for example, if I have, if I have my pen, I'm holding it up but you're your Lister can't see it. I'm holding a pin. If I throw it across the room, nobody's gonna say you have violated the rights of the pin. That's not possible but if I pick-up my friend Jennifer and I throw her then I have done something wrong. I think that when it comes to sex, need to be very careful. Well, I am an advocate for people understanding themselves and enjoying themselves and helping ner I would never be okay with somebody.
 | Gwendolyn  | :  | Violating somebody else or using another person for their own need. I think that, that's problematic and I think that falls into consent as well, because we talk about consent in terms of touching in terms of the physical but there's also this kind of emotional, emotional and mental consent that it seems like it's off the table when it comes to sex but it is very much on the table for any other kind of an arrangement. And what I mean by that is when somebody is given consent to a sexual relationship.
 | Gwendolyn  | :  | Based on what they know about the other person thinking the other person is being honest, right? And if the other person is lying in order to get sex with that person, I think that's a violation of consent that would be illegal in any other context if I were to buy a car. For example, and the person calling me the card did not tell me that something was wrong with the car. Because they wanted me to buy the car, and I buy the car something's wrong. I can sue them for that. That's problematic but we don't have the same kind of conversation when it comes to six and I think that kind of understanding that this is, this is not just any other activity. This is just we're talking about somebody's, emotional and physical vulnerable self and more education. I think would kind of would help in that in that van. I think I've gotten away from what you're asking but.
 | Ella  | :  | No, I love it though. Gosh I really do.
 | Gwendolyn  | :  | May.
 | Gwendolyn  | :  | I, yeah, I something that I think has happened so this isn't exactly in the direction of hi salt but the idea of like, well I call it, I'm gonna draw a parallel with health and with food I'm gonna draw that parallel, I'm calling this the taco.
 | Gwendolyn  | :  | Of sex, what's happened? So my Carlo will work that we would spend times making.
 | Gwendolyn  | :  | Food, you have that with family, with friends, it's the social activity and then food just looked at, just some sort of efficiency thing. You just go and fast-food microwave foods were happening. You could get more done but all of a sudden you're eating alone, it's not healthy.
 | Gwendolyn  | :  | It's very quick, we have more cup holders and cars and not fast-food is made invite size so that you can eat, it's just sub the food in your face and then get on with your day. It's no longer event it's just to satisfy this, one thing. And what so we seeing people's health is just falling apart, it's falling apart, just satisfying an immediate need for food, by just giving you the food is not working, you need to be able to plan a meal, you know, what's nutria like nobody goes to taco bell, thinking it's a good idea. It might not make you feel better an hour or the next day, you know, that you can go-to the store, you know, that you can prepare something healthy, it takes more time and you can have a conversation with people while you're preparing them, while you're eating but once that option for something really fast is there we tend to go for it.
 | Gwendolyn  | :  | And it's not working. And I think that's what's happening with sex and with dating apps and with corn we think that this is some sort of an efficient way to just satisfy that very physical need and that's all that has to be done and it's not working. There are reports that men are loaner than they ever have been pornography is more prevalent and it's more violent and then young women are getting their education from this and thinking that's the way that they're supposed to be, that's the way they're supposed to look, and it is awful for them and children have access to the internet, younger and younger. So, teachers want to talk about sex Ed younger and younger, and people are saying that so appropriate, but the fact of the matter is the internet will get to your kid before it, unless the teacher gets her first. So the parents do, that's why we have to talk about it younger and younger.
 | Gwendolyn  | :  | So, oh, I think that there has to be a whole re examination just as we have to do with our health and our diet, like, what is food really for? What is meal prep for? What is it? It's supposed to feel you, right and you can have these clack conversations in this great life after you have a meal you should feel like going out for a walk. If you don't feel like walking you didn't eat the right thing, you didn't fuel yourself and the same thing with, with sex. If it's just that taco bell moment that tender hook up, it does, it's not going to make you lights the next day. Make you smile for no reason. It's not gonna nurture your sole in any way bring you closer to yourself or the other person and I think that that's what we're finding out.
 | Ella  | :  | Well, and I what we just said is actually a perfect Sega into something I haven't mentioned. So if you don't know Glenn, you are the first episode in my new season. I'm all renewed and starting over, and what you just said exactly in, in terms of health and food, and what we put into our bodies. I love that parallel because in the season of my life I actually built out a philosophy that I, that I called myself. So I don't know if I'm allowed to make my own philosophy, you'll have to tell me that you can correct me but it, this idea of what I call Seth balance now, Seff is SE SPH.
 | Gwendolyn  | :  | Yeah, you go for it.
 | Ella  | :  | And it's a term that I made up. It means a spiritual, emotional, financial and physical health and it's something that it's just a really quick acronym that I can use when I'm at evaluating and doing a quick analysis or inventory of my life. Up. Okay, how am I feeling, spiritually, how am I feeling emotionally? How will this impact how will this decision, right, with taco bell, whatever it could be it impact me spiritually emotionally, financially, physically.
 | Ella  | :  | And what I do think that is interesting about sex is that there are serious. I would say that taco bell doesn't necessarily have serious immediate consequence spiritually physically perhaps, maybe even emotionally financially not so much cause it's not a big financial bird and one way or the other, but perhaps long-term but with sex we know that there are serious, I mean, we just thought in talking about the context of morality. We know that there are spiritual implications to sex there are serious emotional implications. Of course when you look at family planning and healthcare costs and economic implications the finance touches and then being a physical act for the most part it of course has a lot of physical implications as, as we look at. So that's why I think it's so great that the first episode in my.
 | Ella  | :  | Journey my Seth pass to help. I need to find a better way to phrase that you came on. I do really appreciate kicking that off but on that note and as we close out may I ask you that, okay.
 | Ella  | :  | Is there something that you find really strong in terms of this stuff balance that is really strong for you and healthy or is, is there an area where maybe you wish you could do a little bit better because I think that sometimes what we do is we put a lot of focus on one dimension and then let another dimension subside, I think right now physically, I'm not working out as much as I could be because I'm so hyper focused on my emotional and spiritual health at the moment. But is, is there something that you see in your life in terms of being on having a stuff balance where you maybe a little bit stronger or not a strong.
 | Gwendolyn  | :  | That's tough. Cause it really is a, a balancing act. I will say I am getting gentler with myself. I used to beat myself up a lot and then getting older. I realize I don't need to do that. And then the other thing is a lot of women have been told like.
 | Gwendolyn  | :  | I don't know you can do.
 | Gwendolyn  | :  | This idea of what it means to do at all is just so vague. And so then young women say, I want to do it all but we don't really know what the hell all is and all and success and happiness, you know, for you. It's these four pillars, they mean different things. What they're going to be expressed as I would say. That what I have learned in order to be able to manage those four things.
 | Gwendolyn  | :  | Is that I can't do it all at once. So like, when you said like, oh, I need to get to the gym or this so that there are times when I am able to put more effort into working out and that is because something else is kind of taken care of and then there's times when I'm able to, but I can't do it all at once, like I can't be exercising M-B-M mo and a professor, I can't be a mom and a professor at once, I can't even be a podcaster and a professor. At once. I can do all it, all of it but I can balance it and do it at different times and then I am so much happier. Because when I am doing any of those things, I'm giving 100 percent of my energy to it and I'm gentler with myself.
 | Gwendolyn  | :  | And just recognizing like, it's okay. If something, if everything that I wanted to get done, doesn't get done today, that's, it's okay. I would save one of the biggest shifts for me. I did not know that I was going to have my daughter, I mentioned her like, three or four times now cause she's such a big part of my life. I was told my entire life that really pregnancy was very unlikely. Let's just put it that way. And so, when I had her, it was just a huge mindset shift for me and I'm an older older woman and before her I would measure a good day by maybe my to do list and how productive I was.
 | Gwendolyn  | :  | And then after having her how I would measure a good day is radically different. It's you know, I'm alive, she's alive. We had a walk, we left she learned a new game.
 | Gwendolyn  | :  | I talked to some friends, everything about the measurement of a good day for me now is about relationships with others. And I think that becoming a mom is what made that shift for me. The productive stuff is the secondary thing. And I think about that even with my work with my students I care more about the relationship and the interactions that I have with them than I do. Just about the bottom line of how many things that I grade today. It's like, wait, how did I participate in their intellectual development? That's what I care about.
 | Gwendolyn  | :  | With, even with, with podcasting with, you know, with good. And in the details I love the connection that I have with my co-host. Rudy rude is also a survey grad by the way. But I love the connection I have with him and whenever we're talking about a good episode it's not just about like, what was scheduled but it's, you know, what did we learn? How did we grow? How are he and I better, what did we put out into the world that it, it's about relationships. So, I would say it's on a continuum scale, what is good for me now might not be good for me in five years right now. I'm at peace because I think I've come to a point where I am focusing more on the joy of my relationships and that made all the other things actually easier to do.
 | Ella  | :  | Oh, well I do wanna say in regards to your daughter she is. So, so very lucky to not only have a strong and again very beautiful police fine prop donkey online you'll know what I'm talking about but.
 | Ella  | :  | Just forward thinking intentional intelligent intellectual mother who is, is embracing challenging conversations and, and talking about the impact the society. She is absolutely a blessed lucky little girl to have you. I see that and I hope that you know that and, and I can only imagine.
 | Gwendolyn  | :  | Thank you.
 | Ella  | :  | What an incredible young woman she's going to grow up into it makes me really excited when I see proactive and intentional parenting because I know it's easy to, to look at all the negatives in the world but I still have a lot of hope in our future and it's because of, of parents like you. So, I do wanna say that and that god's plan was so perfect twenty placed her in your life and I think that.
 | Ella  | :  | Some of the most unexpected, beautiful blessings are just the best things that have happened to us before we wrap up. I just wanna say I can you one more time, just remind everyone where they can find you online if they want to dive more deeply into all the work that you've done being. You're incredible podcast that I really enjoy. I did not know that Rudy with some survey by the way I'm loving the try school love survey was our brother school for anyone listening and not aware that was the all boys brother school but can you just tell us one more time where everyone can find you online?
 | Gwendolyn  | :  | Mm-hmm.
 | Gwendolyn  | :  | Yeah, so Instagram is at Prof P-R-O-F-D-O-L-S-K-E and then the podcast is good. As in the details, we've got a website good is in the details dot com and it's available on all platforms. It's one of my, I mean, I'm glad you're back into podcasting, cause honestly I think it is, it's just such a joy. Like, it's such a beautiful thing to put out these conversations to really delight in the Artic conversation. So, thank you for having me on and I'm excited when your book comes out and you can be on good as in the details for anyone listening.
 | Gwendolyn  | :  | She's going to be on ours too.
 | Ella  | :  | I cannot wait, and I'm gonna link everything. I'm gonna link your Instagram your podcast into the podcast details for anyone who wants to find it and do a quick click. I really, really really want to extend a grads. My gratitude to you for joining me today. Because your insights into the philosophy of sex, they profound impact on society have not only been in lightning but you just in so many ways you inspire me and so, I thank you for your expertise. Thank you for enriching my understanding of such a, a tibial aspect of human existence and I'm really really looking forward to, to visiting you and, and hopping on your podcast to.
 | Ella  | :  | To talk about my books that I'm very excited about. And I'm ready to just have it out, I'm ready to just have it out in the world because it is, it's been a, a labor of love and, and I'm really grateful. But thank you so, so much again and I look forward to connecting soon.
 | Gwendolyn  | :  | Mm-hmm.
 | Gwendolyn  | :  | Thank you.